Absent Sounds: Hi Cam.

Cam Kahin: Hello.

Absent Sounds: I'm so glad you're here today to talk about CHUG.

Cam Kahin: Thanks for having me.

Absent Sounds: Thanks for being here. There's a lot I could ask, and a lot I will ask. But I want to start with the idea that this album came to you without the box of an album. I heard you didn't really set out to make a record. It was intuitive, and it came together that way.

Cam Kahin: I probably had about six of the songs written before I even realised it was going to be an album. I'd just been writing, and I was touring so much those couple of years, 2023 and 2024. Towards the end of that I wanted to be doing my own tours. It was a lot of support slots. I wanted to tour an album, so I thought, let's make one. I'm on a cool label, and I've built up a lot of friends and producers I really trust and admire. So it was sitting down and saying, I really love these songs, but I probably need four or more. And then it was an album.

Absent Sounds: Which were the first ones you put together?

Cam Kahin: Oh man. It's been a while. The first song written for this album was probably early 2023, when I was a totally different person.

Absent Sounds: What type of person were you?

Cam Kahin: Just a stoner. Pretty lazy, smoking a tonne of weed, and just kind of sad.

Absent Sounds: Sad boy era.

Cam Kahin: Sad boy stoner. I'm not the archetype of a health-positivity guru now, but I think I'm in a much better place than when I was writing the majority of this album. I still resonate with a tonne of the songs, for sure.

Absent Sounds: I think it's interesting that you say that, because going through the record again to prepare, some of these tracks are so sad. I don't know how else to say it. They're really good, but they're heavy sometimes.

Cam Kahin: Totally. And maybe not to spoil the segment, since we're going to go through the songs, but it's kind of hard sometimes, because it's like, this song isn't really about much. It's kind of just like, I was just sad. I could probably find more meaning in it, but that's where it was.

Absent Sounds: Maybe now that it's been a while, you'll have a different thought on them.

Cam Kahin: There are going to be songs where I'm listening intently and thinking, what was I talking about? How do I perceive this now?

Absent Sounds: I'm interested in why it's called CHUG. Did the title come before the record, and did it help bring cohesion to it?

Cam Kahin: I think it came later. It was so late into writing these songs that it became an album. When I started thinking of it as an album, that word struck me. I was feeling a lot of frustration with how things were panning out, with a lot of changes in my personal and career life, and I was thinking of ways to say keep it pushing, keep it going no matter how hard it gets. That felt like a cool word. And there are some small-town-core songs too, and I pictured some dude in a Bass Pro Shops hat saying, "Chug, chug, chug."

Absent Sounds: That's crazy. The first thing I thought of was djent.

Cam Kahin: Oh, that too. There aren't a lot of chuggy moments on here. Maybe in a different way. There's not much djent on this album.

Absent Sounds: Well, you've got a piece of that somewhere.

Cam Kahin: That's album two.

Absent Sounds: The next one will be "We're Waiting for It."

Cam Kahin: Full djent.

Absent Sounds: Exactly. Track number one is "Can't Hide From You," featuring...

Cam Kahin: Natsuko Miyamoto.

Absent Sounds: Which is a crazy pull. How did that come together?

Cam Kahin: We toured with them twice across North America. There's a language barrier, of course. Her English got better every time I saw her, but we'd just say, good to see you, and give each other hugs at the shows. Then the next day we'd be driving to the next venue and I'd be texting her with Translate. She became super supportive, and such a nice person. I wrote this song not long after getting off the second tour with them, so inspired. They have this song, "End Roll," that's so good. It's super long, but the best. My favourite thing about a song being that long is that when it's just kind of chugging along, it itches something in my brain. I could listen to it for twenty minutes if it's hitting a crazy pocket and slowly building. I wanted to make a song like that, and there's this really soft, pretty moment in it, so I reached out and said, it'd be really cool if you could put a vocal over this. The next day she sent me an audio file on a website I'd never seen before. I downloaded it and thought, this is incredible.

Absent Sounds: Not spam.

Cam Kahin: No, it wasn't spam.

Absent Sounds: That's great. Back to the title: "Can't Hide From You." It makes me wonder what you were hiding from, at the time you were writing it.

Cam Kahin: It was a vague idea that you can't hide from what you're running from. Most issues you have, you've got to confront head on.

Absent Sounds: True. A support worker I knew would always ask, are you the cow or the bison? Bison run toward a storm instead of away from it, so they get through it faster. I didn't know that. It made me wonder whether you're the type of person who goes straight through it, or avoids.

Cam Kahin: In some aspects I go straight towards it, and in some, maybe not. In daily life, if there's an issue, I can't do anything but confront it and talk about it, now. Something that gives me so much anxiety, and happened recently, is when someone texts out of nowhere, "Hey, I need to call you," or "We need to talk." I have to try my hardest not to call you fifty times if you're not answering.

Absent Sounds: Was it a false alarm?

Cam Kahin: It was just a friend of ours having a hard time. Not life or death, but still. And I have a vape, so maybe I shouldn't hide from quitting that.

Absent Sounds: You have a list of addictions to confront. The next track, "Come Around," carries the tension that began with the first. Here it sounds like the tension is about being jaded as a musician, and growing within a community. What has that felt like for you?

Cam Kahin: I got signed when I was 19. I'm originally from a town called Dunnville. There are probably a million towns that look and sound exactly like it. It's about 5,000 people, maybe more now. Nothing's going on except some confederate flags flying. It's a pretty brutal spot to grow up. I probably knew forty people. My dad always lived in Hamilton and I'd go to the city, and I had family in Markham, so I wasn't as restricted to that community as some others there. Then I got signed, and I thought, I've got some money, I'll move to Toronto. I was very impressionable. All of a sudden I was creating so freely, and all of a sudden I felt I had to prove myself to certain people, lifting my arms like, you guys are the adults, you know what to do. I was confused a lot of the time about why things were going the way they were. A lot of growing needed to happen. But it was when the consequences of actions that weren't my own, taken on my behalf, started to land that I felt really jaded, and really confused about why my own relationships were being damaged by something I wasn't even in control of.

Absent Sounds: That's a scary place. You lose a lot of autonomy that way.

Cam Kahin: I've cut through the weeds quite a bit and taken a lot of action, so I don't feel that way anymore, which is really nice. It was a confusing time.

Absent Sounds: I'm glad. I'm always glad I wasn't a child star, such as yourself.

Cam Kahin: I wouldn't say I was a child star, but a child indie musician.

Absent Sounds: There are many such examples. There's a line in this track about breaking your back to make it while they might break you down. That conjures a lot of imagery about resilience, and about literally being beaten down. Do you find you have to create your own resolution in moments of tension, or do you let life resolve itself the way it happens?

Cam Kahin: I used to be very much, what will happen will happen and it'll work out. But especially this year I've become very resolution-focused. I've become addicted to taking action. When I lost some team members and more responsibility came onto me, it became addicting to see results I'd actually strived for. That's something I don't want to let go of, which can become its own problem.

Absent Sounds: True. You grab things by the horns and just do it?

Cam Kahin: I think so.

Absent Sounds: What's the number one rule you'd give someone seeking that lifestyle? Someone who's pretty passive in life, but wants to pick up their own bootstraps and do something about it?

Cam Kahin: If you feel happy and you're doing good, then you know more than me. But if you feel consistently unsatisfied with how something pans out, then by grabbing the bull by the horns, eventually your life would become more like what's in your head, what you want for yourself.

Absent Sounds: Did you always have a picture in your head of what you wanted your life to look like?

Cam Kahin: I definitely wanted to do music. It was always this vague idea: I don't want to work a job, I want to make music. I've been doing that for a while, which is amazing, and I feel so grateful and lucky. But you don't really think about the day to day, especially when you're younger. Being your own boss is tricky. It takes discipline, especially when you're kind of type B and want to make music and art. It's hard to say, now I'm going to wake up and have some semblance of routine.

Absent Sounds: I recently heard Cameron Winter say on a podcast that musicians should maybe get a day job on the weekends, or do something else on the side, to keep your head grounded rather than always in the clouds. Do you subscribe to that?

Cam Kahin: If I need to, I will. But the tough thing is that a musician's weeks never look like the last one. I try all the time to say, Sundays are for this, and then it's the only time the rest of the band can rehearse, or we've got a show that day, or I've got to do something else. That goes for every day of the week. So the sentiment is true. I try to have other hobbies, totally unrelated, that give me that flow state, which I think helps.

Absent Sounds: I'm curious. What's one of them?

Cam Kahin: I skateboard. I have for a while, though I also feel it's an unsustainable hobby. I love it so much, and I love that failing is just as much a part of it as succeeding. I think that's a very valuable skill to have. But when you fail, you could potentially break something. And I've been reading, and trying to keep my apartment clean.

Absent Sounds: We'll go to the next track, and it's a great place to transition, because there's a line about breaking a rib and hitting the ground, but being able to take it.

Cam Kahin: That was a perfect segue. That was unintentional.

Absent Sounds: It was great. I guess that's your approach to life: taking the hits and being okay to fail.

Cam Kahin: Rolling with the punches, and also half literally about skateboarding.

Absent Sounds: When I was listening, it gave me pop-punk vibes. It's got that kick. But it also made me think of being in a pit, and I'm very averse to being hit. Do you go in a pit?

Cam Kahin: Not much anymore. I just don't go to a lot of shows lately. It's kind of cliché when musicians say this, but a lot of musicians feel like going to a show is a workplace.

Absent Sounds: I get it. I was going to ask if you feel the same way about listening to music, because I've met musicians who say so, and I find it boggling to not listen obsessively.

Cam Kahin: No, that's crazy. In my darkest moments within the past few years, especially around career, when I felt I'd hit a wall creatively, there were times when listening to music felt like a reminder of what I'm not capable of doing. After coming out of that period, and being the most proud I've ever been of what I'm creating, I don't feel that way at all. Even though I don't think it's valid to feel that way, because I don't think comparison is ever helpful.

Absent Sounds: Imposter syndrome can be excruciating. Recently I've been obsessed with Julia Holter. I'm not sure if you've listened to the records she put out just recently.

Cam Kahin: I haven't.

Absent Sounds: I start feeling like I'll never create anything in my life as beautiful as this. Which sucks, but it can also be inspiring. Is there a specific artist that comes to mind when you feel imposter syndrome creeping in?

Cam Kahin: That's a good question. There's this album, Scrapyard, by Quadeca.

Absent Sounds: The YouTuber who turned into...

Cam Kahin: That's him. It's funny, I'll try to show my brother his music and he'll say, I cannot not see this guy as a FIFA YouTube rapper.

Absent Sounds: But the record was really good.

Cam Kahin: Oh my god. The one after that too, in terms of production, and he's doing it himself. Artists like Show Me the Body. There's a song by them called "USA Lullaby." I strive to make decisions in music that are that bold, with the energy of a genre we've known for a long time, so it feels nostalgic, but not ignoring the year we live in, in terms of experimentation. I find that super inspiring.

Absent Sounds: I get tired of people who stay in one lane.

Cam Kahin: That's my thing.

Absent Sounds: Track number four, "Read the Room." This is the first thing I heard from you, and I thought, damn, this is really good. My sister says the same.

Cam Kahin: Oh, thank you both.

Absent Sounds: Tell me about that track, and any words you want to add.

Cam Kahin: It paints a picture of where I was at the time: smoking weed in a dark room, listening to sad music. The resolution in that song is that I still have enough in me to care about other people. I'll push all this away for you, essentially.

Absent Sounds: That's tough. Do you find you can't receive care from people, too? Even if I can give you care, I don't feel it when it touches me.

Cam Kahin: Totally. Hearing compliments, too: they don't stick, ever. It's always, cool, that's nice that you feel that way. I don't believe it. It doesn't do anything to me.

Absent Sounds: Well, I will give you a compliment. I really love the bridge section here. It's really satisfying, and beautiful. I'll also add that a lot of your music feels very emo, very scene. Do you take that as a slur?

Cam Kahin: No. It's the stuff I resonated with most growing up. I feel really proud of it.

Absent Sounds: I'm glad. "Pacifica" feels like it lives in many different geographical locations. You shout out different places. Is there one city that's the biggest part of your identity right now?

Cam Kahin: Toronto. It's the first place I felt I had a real community, and friends who are really my type of people. But I wrote that song after spending a lot of time going through the US in the weird kind of touring way.

Absent Sounds: You don't actually spend a week there.

Cam Kahin: Everything goes by like low shutter speed in the car window. I was there, but I was also seeing people, and it's really trippy to spot the differences between states, and how vast the US is in terms of types of people.

Absent Sounds: I've been in a couple of states, but I haven't been across the entirety of it. What sticks out to you about the variation?

Cam Kahin: Of the states specifically?

Absent Sounds: Or I'll expand it to Canada. Whatever comes to mind.

Cam Kahin: The universal thing is that there are super nice and super weird people everywhere. I think it's cool to see places that aren't visited as much as the major cities; they always have more excitement. In some major cities, if you're the opener, they don't want to hear you, or no one's going to move.

Absent Sounds: I disagree with people who do that. Stand there and do nothing. Move. Sorry.

Cam Kahin: It's weird, and some of it really throws me off. I'm really affected by the faces in the crowd.

Absent Sounds: Can you actually see people's faces?

Cam Kahin: Some venues will blast a light on all their faces. It happened when I played the Phoenix: I couldn't see a single person, which is also weird. But I'll be in my head the whole show thinking, this person absolutely hates us, and then I'll see them after the show and they'll say, that was awesome, and buy a vinyl. I would've had a better show if I'd smiled.

Absent Sounds: Well, I guess it's also on you.

Cam Kahin: It's definitely on me.

Absent Sounds: I get that. I'm very glad I'm never on the other side of the stage. Track number six is "Tied Up." A lot of your record is talking to someone else, or about what's happening with other people: family, friends. Is that a natural way for you to write?

Cam Kahin: I think it's specific to this record. I had some friends who were having a really hard time.

Absent Sounds: I think there was a press line where you said this one made you cry in the studio.

Cam Kahin: It's kind of hoping my friends are okay, and wanting certain people to be honest with me about what's happening, and a confusion when someone is trying to present as if everything's perfectly fine, but it's not.

Absent Sounds: What does being a friend look like to you these days? Being a good friend, and having a good one?

Cam Kahin: There's no wall. It's honesty, and just being there. I have some really great friends who'll call me and say, this is going on, or I'll do the same, and it's not listening just to appear as if they're listening. It's true listening and understanding.

Absent Sounds: Has that always been what you've looked for in friends, since you were a kid?

Cam Kahin: Beyond having a hard time, it's humour I find funny, and taste I can get behind, and being able to share cool stuff, and just caring about stuff. I love people who are really passionate about something, like one of my boys, who's obsessed with One Piece.

Absent Sounds: That's a good obsession. You can go for a long time.

Cam Kahin: He's not a minority on that. A lot of people are obsessed with One Piece. It just hasn't hit me yet. I haven't seen it. I could be. What a venture.

Absent Sounds: It's a long-term relationship.

Cam Kahin: This guy is a great producer, Nico Otti. I met him a couple of years ago, and until recently I'd always say, did you see this new movie, or have you seen this show, and every single time he'd go, nah man, I watch One Piece. It's the only media.

Absent Sounds: I love that. He's going down with the ship.

Cam Kahin: Totally.

Absent Sounds: Is there anything you'd ride or die for like that? It doesn't have to be media.

Cam Kahin: There's tonnes of stuff. I love movies. One that always comes to mind is Mandy, this epic Nicolas Cage revenge thriller by a Canadian director. It's so psychotic and insane, and it taps into something in my head.

Absent Sounds: Shout it out. We'll put people on to Mandy.

Cam Kahin: Watch Mandy.

Absent Sounds: Back to locations. "Limbo" is another interesting track. It feels like it has Easter eggs in it, and it shouts out another place, Alexandra Park.

Cam Kahin: Alexandra Park. It's not far from here.

Absent Sounds: I've never been there.

Cam Kahin: It's a pretty small park. There are so many little parks. This song was pretty abstract in how I wanted to express what I was thinking. But it's about this crazy ability to turn a blind eye to something like the addiction crisis, and things of that nature. A lack of empathy that I wanted to express in some abstract way.

Absent Sounds: Is that a pressing subject for you? Does it weigh on you?

Cam Kahin: I think so. It's mental health, which is also due to a system and a place we live in, and places lots of people live in, not just here, that's causing this mental health epidemic. And then it turns into all these tragic things, and constantly the response is, get it out of my sight. Which is a crazy way to approach it.

Absent Sounds: I also wanted to ask about the next track, where there's a line about bending and breaking.

Cam Kahin: I think that one is just about being stubborn in certain areas.

Absent Sounds: It's a pretty crazy track. It's really blunt, and not afraid to almost toe the line with self-deprecation. How do you feel about the way you talk about yourself in music? Do you ever feel fear, shame, regret, like you want to take something back?

Cam Kahin: Pretty much always. But then it goes away. With putting it through a label and a distributor, and promoting it, it takes so long from writing a song to putting it out that by the time it's coming out, almost always I think, this one's going to be the end of me, people are going to hate it. That's around when I start really focusing on the lyrics I've said and asking, why would I say that? But over time, with some distance, and once it comes out, it gets re-contextualized. As of right now, I feel cool about everything. It's all just chapters in your book.

Absent Sounds: In the book, do you feel you only understand things now that the chapters have been written, or do you understand them better while you're writing?

Cam Kahin: You mean the emotion?

Absent Sounds: The emotions, the situation, anything about it.

Cam Kahin: It depends. A lot of this music was candid: this is how I feel right now. Over time I have a much better understanding of why I felt that way, and where I was at. But since then I've started writing a lot more about things I feel I have a grasp of and care about, other than my own inner workings.

Absent Sounds: I think it's cool that it's evolving at the same time.

Cam Kahin: When you write about other things, you're also talking about yourself. It paints a picture of your inner workings, of how you'd express something about something else.

Absent Sounds: That reminds me of a book I'm reading, about how what you describe outside yourself flips around and becomes a thing in you. So even when you're talking about something outside yourself, it's also part of you.

Cam Kahin: Totally.

Absent Sounds: Track number nine, "Familiar Features," which I'm such a fan of. Anything that sounds remotely twinkly, I'm hooked. It's a great guitar part.

Cam Kahin: This one's probably my favourite on the album. It was a guitar part I was really proud of.

Absent Sounds: As it should be.

Cam Kahin: I really liked the lyrics too. I was speaking about one thing in particular: being very confused by the landscape of technology, and misinformation, and AI. One video inspired it pretty directly. It was some streamer on a late-night YouTube rabbit hole, slowly realising how much of what he's interacting with is AI bots. Only when you zoom into the picture ten times do you realise the face in the photo in the background isn't real.

Absent Sounds: That's terrifying. I probably should take that stance. Usually I tell myself it's just a twelve-year-old kid on the internet. I should say it's an AI bot.

Cam Kahin: You should. It most likely is. I think something like 70% of content and comments are bots, which is so crazy, especially as it becomes a more dominant reality that we all exist in. Pretty scary stuff. But the worse it gets, I think the more people are choosing to go outside.

Absent Sounds: Is it entering or exiting the matrix?

Cam Kahin: Exiting. You've got to pull the plug from your head.

Absent Sounds: So you don't resign yourself to the state of things. It's easy to say, technology's going to do its thing, we can't help it.

Cam Kahin: To fight it is to fight billions and billions of dollars going into keeping you on these platforms longer and longer. And it's dark: your friend's mom wants to start a restaurant, and she makes great food, and now we've got to tell her to go viral. That's valid, and terrifying. But I hope it gets worse, in a way, to make people feel more confident exiting. Including myself.

Absent Sounds: I was wondering where that places you as a musician.

Cam Kahin: It's a constant frustration, having to participate, and that's a whole five-hour conversation. But I have this idea that an artist is supposed to go away, make something, and come back and present it. And what we've created is, no, it has to be daily. When you have nothing to present, grab an old song, get in front of the camera, do this, do this, do this. It's definitely annoying.

Absent Sounds: I agree. Most of the time it's not your time to be in front of the camera.

Cam Kahin: Most of the time it's not. And I feel dissonance participating on the internet. I think there's a case for it being unethical to even post and participate. Look at the people who run this machine. By posting, I'm trying to achieve their goal for them, which is to keep you on here longer.

Absent Sounds: For free.

Cam Kahin: For free, for ad information and data on you. And I also want to do this full time and achieve this dream and make art like I always wanted to. Both of those have to coexist somehow. It's definitely frustrating.

Absent Sounds: Well, I'll keep an eye out to see how you figure things out.

Cam Kahin: Thanks.

Absent Sounds: The last track is a question, and it feels like it beckons for an answer. Is that your thought with "Where Did It All Go Wrong"? Do you want an answer of where it actually went wrong?

Cam Kahin: There are so many potential answers, not just in my own life but on a societal level, or a technology level. I don't know if I want an answer.

Absent Sounds: You won't get one. I was going to give you an answer, but I'm kidding. I wanted to ask about mornings, because of a line in that track. Do you have a consistent morning routine?

Cam Kahin: I know what I want to do. But then I wake up and I go back to sleep. Lately I try to read in the morning and not look at my phone for a bit, because that definitely doesn't set you up for the greatest day. You're seeing a million different things, terrible and great.

Absent Sounds: I agree. Are long days a good thing or a bad thing for you?

Cam Kahin: In the context of this song, I don't think I was appreciating long days. But in my day-to-day life I do. I'm always shocked, when I get up early and go to sleep late, how long a day can actually feel. If you're enjoying your life, a long day is kind of nice. I don't think I was enjoying life at this time.

Absent Sounds: Well, I hope you're in your long-day era now.

Cam Kahin: Yes.

Absent Sounds: Thank you. The final thing: I feel like I've missed a lot you could talk about, so if there's anything you really want to say, here's your one and only chance.

Cam Kahin: I've been dropping songs. About a month ago I dropped a heavier, synthy punk track called "Fly on the Wall." This next Wednesday I have a song called "What's Up Coming."

Absent Sounds: Are you going to play it at Second Summer?

Cam Kahin: I should, shouldn't I? I sent the Fellows a track list and it wasn't on there, but I feel like I need to. We're playing with a post-punk band and an incredible noise rock band, Concrete Vehicles. They're psychotic.

Absent Sounds: I saw them.

Cam Kahin: It's like watching theatre. We're sandwiched between those two, and I wanted to play the heaviest songs, but maybe I should just be myself.

Absent Sounds: Don't be yourself. What are the heavy songs?

Cam Kahin: So there's "What's Up Coming" on Wednesday, and then one more. All three are loose singles.

Absent Sounds: And this is gearing up for...

Cam Kahin: Album two, which is done.

Absent Sounds: Is it actually?

Cam Kahin: It is.

Absent Sounds: Damn.

Cam Kahin: And I've never been more excited.

Absent Sounds: That's really exciting, because this one is already really good. If you're more excited about the next one...

Cam Kahin: I'm so excited about it.

Absent Sounds: Where can we keep up with you?

Cam Kahin: Cam Kahin on—

Absent Sounds: Actually, don't worry about socials. Go find him in person.

Cam Kahin: Find me in the streets.

Absent Sounds: And that's Cam Kahin. Thanks for listening.